Curse

aapo · Feb 13, 2008, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That's if you consider "playing and learning the game" to be grind. If you do, then how do you enjoy games?

- Games are meant to be fun. Some people consider grinding fun, others don't (logically true since there are loads of games that feature almost nothing but grindmill, but still have active playerbase). In Guild Wars all grinding is optional and thus satisfies both groups of players. I think that's how it should be. If grind can be avoided while still preserving replay value of games, I'll be all ears to hear it. Lack of endgame content was a serious problem previously, some might say it still is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

And if the AI is so easy, why do people still have trouble in certain areas, or with certain monsters? It's obviously a bit more complex that what we think.

- They are using bad builds or are underleveled with non-max items. Think success based on this algorithm:

Chance to win = (X1*Y1 + X2*Y2 + ... + Xn*Yn)/n

where
Xn = how well you do the trick n (0...1)
Yn = how important the trick n is (0...1)

Let's take a GvG example: caster who never swaps weapons in game might be in top 100 team with fairly good performance. His skill in weapon swapping is 0, but also the importance of weapon swapping is fairly low. If he would swap weapons every time, the team would win say 1.25% more games than they're winning. Team's wins are likely because they understand nuances of splitting and VoD tactics, which have great impact on games (and on the other hand facing team that don't understand them).

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

(you need correct definition of strawman btw. It is refuting argument by refuting something different and claiming you refuted orignial point. It is not explaining your point.)

- Like you're blaming UB for PvE not being about skill, when it never was in the first place?

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

It was because they didn't have what it took to run that successfully.

- If person can't read, it's very likely because he has not been taught to read. With proper instructions everyone can complete all of PvE even without Ursan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Your "grind" format puts all those percentages to 100% - everyone can do everything by simply grinding long enough.

- Well that's the joke: not everyone will grind so much to reach the max level, which creates these tiers. Maybe I was wrong to say that only grind can create tiers, since reading/not reading builds on wiki and asking/not asking advice creates them too.

RiKio · Feb 13, 2008, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Ursanway is a Double-Edged skill.

I think it was introduced for allowing The Unwanted PvE Profesisons for playing with groups and then ``improve´´ the PUG experience. What is the problem? Anet designed the skill with too much potential, obviosuly for been used by the Unwanted, but The Wanted Ones started to use the skill....and that is why is there this UB problem.

And no, Anet will not nerf UB. Monsters don´t say ``lammers´´

lyra_song · Feb 13, 2008, 04:34 PM // 16:34

They should nerf it. Cause its getting boring....

-.o

RiKio · Feb 13, 2008, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

They should nerf it. Cause its getting boring....

-.o

Well....KS2 Mod improves my Ursan Experience

Isileth · Feb 13, 2008, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- Games are meant to be fun. Some people consider grinding fun, others don't (logically true since there are loads of games that feature almost nothing but grindmill, but still have active playerbase). In Guild Wars all grinding is optional and thus satisfies both groups of players. I think that's how it should be. If grind can be avoided while still preserving replay value of games, I'll be all ears to hear it. Lack of endgame content was a serious problem previously, some might say it still is.

The problem is while the grind is optional, if you choose not to do it you end up weaker than those that do.
I could live with grind if it gave no advantage (I would still prefer it to be no grind at all but it wouldnt be as bad), but when you start linking power to grind you kill skill>time.

So while advantaged remain tied to grind its not going to be ok with those who enjoy skill>time gameplay.

GrimEye · Feb 13, 2008, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I never asked to remove Ursan. And what is this "symptom" you speak of? Could you elaborate a bit on this?

Ursan is crutch to propped up classes that are "discriminated".

This discrimination is brought about by great major misstep: a flawed character development of profession in Faction and Nightfall, and their vaguely-defined function in PVE and PVP structure in GW world. Most characters in Faction and Nightfall are just "muggle blood" of the core profession: Ritualist (E/Mo), Assassin (E/W), Paragon (W/R), and Dervish (W/Mo).

Here is one of a good thread to read as an example of my contention: Assassins and Ritualists. A long read, with usual intense emotions, but a great exchange of insight.

The second ill of GW is: there is just too many skill to juggle, that one tweak of one skill may set off domino effect of abused or disused. One innocent change may become "uber" with certain combo skill.

All these underdevelopment and unclear-defined roles created a culture of bias.

Quote:

... the problem is the underlying structure of the game, And this structure and development of the game created a mind-set of bias, which players carry in their mind without knowing its in their head. So we cannot blame specific player or group from the problem of discrimination ...,

Its embarrassing to quote myself but I dont want to reword my thought. To further embarrassed myself, let me quote more:

Quote:

But we seem to separate on the idea that the "problem" can be solve. Your post seem to imply, correct me if Im wrong, that these underlying problems can be solved in due time and would be relevant.

My contention is:

1. the PVE-skill changes would be superficial, would not solve the underlying structure and developmental mistakes of the past, nor change the culture of bias against some professions,

2. time is working against ANET,

3. and the changes, whatever they are, would always be cosmetics and would be irrelevant when GW2 comes.

By creating GW2, ANET just acknowledge their mistakes that had accumulated over the years. GW2 is an acknowledgement that GW1 is hopeless and beyond acceptable cure, on deeper level.

If ANET gives considerable resources, time, and attention for all the problem that besets GW1, it is less resources, less time, and less attention to GW2 development. From such unconcentrated, unfocus action, GW2 might be affected. After all, ANET is really not earning anything at the moment with their kind of business model.

If ANET will simply give cosmetic changes, then such changes would be meaningless, and might compound the problem even more, as past actions by ANET indicated.

Give ANET some leeway as they worked on GW2. I'll take any changes ANET can spare on GW1, even taking out the PVE-skills.

You know why greens and golds and minipets prices will go nowhere but down? Because the GW game structure has no way to "sink" them. The pig exchange last Canthan festival is a "stop-gap" sink system that should have been part of the system long ago.

Ursan is just a crutch. GW2 is the ultimate solution. ANET did many good thing in GW1. But we just hope ANET learned from their mistakes.

My take.

Isileth · Feb 13, 2008, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimEye

Ursan is crutch to propped up classes that are "discriminated".

The problem is it doesnt.

Yes it might let them get in a group. But not as their class, but as UB.

I know I have chars like a mesmer because I dont want to be playing as a frontline on that char, I do that on my other chars.
UB does not make mesmers (or any of the other unwanted proffesions) more wanted, it simply lets them become an overpowered frontline char.

GrimEye · Feb 13, 2008, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

The problem is it doesnt.

Yes it might let them get in a group. But not as their class, but as UB.

I know I have chars like a mesmer because I dont want to be playing as a frontline on that char, I do that on my other chars.
UB does not make mesmers (or any of the other unwanted proffesions) more wanted, it simply lets them become an overpowered frontline char.

Ok, Isileth. Suppose there is no ursan, and we are still in the "good old days" DoA.

Do you think a Ritualist, Assassin, Mesmer, Dervish, and Paragon can even "get in" and "play at all" in party with normal pugging meta-build in DoA? If you take out Ursan, what "meta-build" do you think would dominate DoA?

Its just a kettle and a pot calling each other black. It just happens there is now more pots.

My take.

aapo · Feb 13, 2008, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

The problem is while the grind is optional, if you choose not to do it you end up weaker than those that do.

- Why is this an ethical concern, if you can kill monster in 5 seconds or 2 seconds? Preserving status quo for three years in computer game is pretty dubious goal. You all sound like crime has been done, but in reality viability of all old builds in PvE has not changed at all, because the areas haven't changed. If anything making DoA accessible by reducing difficulty of monsters has opened up new possibilities. Most people want to be as powerful as possible and they are happily using UB, TNTF, SY, Pain Inverter and others. I don't believe for a second that they are forced to do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

I could live with grind if it gave no advantage (I would still prefer it to be no grind at all but it wouldnt be as bad), but when you start linking power to grind you kill skill>time.

- I wish GvG meta was still Charge Warriors and Boonprots, but unfortunately the game changes. Speaking of skill>time that is meant for PvP. It's not plausible claim that every PvE character should be equally inept in vein of socialism, and this is held as some kind of positive value? Rubbish.

It's extremely important for PvP to not be about grind and ANET has consistently defended this point throughout the course of game. I don't understand your argument at all to be honest.

aapo · Feb 13, 2008, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimEye

The second ill of GW is: there is just too many skill to juggle, that one tweak of one skill may set off domino effect of abused or disused. One innocent change may become "uber" with certain combo skill.

- Most of the skillbalances izzy makes make no sense whatsoever. Why Troll Unguent needed buff in duration instead of horrible casting time of three seconds (same as Ether Feast previously)? Why did Power Leak have to be nerfed to laughable 1...4 energy loss and still have 10 energy cost? I've come to realize that Izzy doesn't either understand anything about skill balance and what makes skills good/bad or just doesn't care to fix them properly.

Isileth · Feb 13, 2008, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- Why is this an ethical concern, if you can kill monster in 5 seconds or 2 seconds? Preserving status quo for three years in computer game is pretty dubious goal. You all sound like crime has been done, but in reality viability of all old builds in PvE has not changed at all, because the areas haven't changed. If anything making DoA accessible by reducing difficulty of monsters has opened up new possibilities. Most people want to be as powerful as possible and they are happily using UB, TNTF, SY, Pain Inverter and others. I don't believe for a second that they are forced to do it.

Well answer me this, if there was a skill that killed everything in radar range would you use it?
Now regardless of that answer lets assume you dont, lets say you find that terribly boring. How would you feel about others being able to use it?

This is an online game, what others do does effect you.
People will start grouping only with people who choose to use said overpowered skill.
Those using it would make money faster, prices would rise even faster yet those who dont use it dont gain anymore money.

And also, the game should be balanced. It shouldnt be up to the players to make it balanced by not using skills. Because there will always be those who want to be the best regardless of how, thats why you have those who cheat and use exploits etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- I wish GvG meta was still Charge Warriors and Boonprots, but unfortunately the game changes. Speaking of skill>time that is meant for PvP. It's not plausible claim that every PvE character should be equally inept in vein of socialism, and this is held as some kind of positive value? Rubbish.

No thats not just for PvP.
Quite clearly on the GW box it states

"You'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate. Whether battling horrific monsters or competing at the highest levels of tournament play, it will always be your skill that earns you victory or defeat."

I also dont think everyone should be equal. Skill should be the factor in who is the better player, not who has spent the most time grinding a title.
It also shouldnt be about who chooses to use an overpowered skill and who doesnt, that choice shouldnt be there. The game should be balanced, however when thats not possible there at least shouldnt be anything as extreme as UB.

GrimEye · Feb 13, 2008, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- Most of the skillbalances izzy makes make no sense whatsoever. Why Troll Unguent needed buff in duration instead of horrible casting time of three seconds (same as Ether Feast previously)? Why did Power Leak have to be nerfed to laughable 1...4 energy loss and still have 10 energy cost? I've come to realize that Izzy doesn't either understand anything about skill balance and what makes skills good/bad or just doesn't care to fix them properly.

I dont know how Izzy does his job, but I dont want to be in his shoes.

Just too many skills to watch over and too many people in the GW community to look over your shoulder for various over-reaction from both sides of the fence. One guy with millions eyeing him with unforgiving pitbull tenacity. I just can't imagine the pressure.

I hope he has a celestial pig to make his job worth the while.

Malice Black · Feb 13, 2008, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Ah blame Izzy time again. People seem to not notice he is just one member in a team of people...

DivineEnvoy · Feb 13, 2008, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Did I say it was the only thing that had an effect?
Just because other things can doesnt suddenly make the point dissapear.

I never said the point should be vanished, just the fact with the existence of thousands of other farming builds, an argument that tells us Ursan is affecting the price of items just seems too weak to even be used.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

This is the one where you miss the point big time.

By that logic if cheating wasnt mentioned in the EULA it would be ok right?

Why do you think things are put into the EULA? Because Anet figures it would be funny? Or because if it was allowed it would have a negative effect on the game?

Just because something isnt in the EULA however doesnt mean it doesnt have a negative effect on the game. I think you can see from how many people are against UB in its current form that more than a few people think it has a negative effect on the game.

First of all, cheating is mentioned in EULA unless you were refering to some other methods of cheating, if so, please specify.

EULA is more or less just a set of rules set by Anet to ensure their game will go in a certain direction. These are the rules players have to follow. In simple terms, just because you don't like a certain skill, and you don't plan to use it, it does not mean that everyone else should not use it. From the way I see it, just because you believe that Ursan is a negative affection to the game, it doesn't mean everyone else sees it that way. You are continue to claim Ursan to be a form of cheating or negative affection to the game, but you have yet to provide any reasons or supports to these claims. Nonetheless, my point here is, despite the fact your claims have no supports or what not, such rule is not justified to be followed by everyone just because you believe so.

Secondly, as far as I can tell, there are only a few people complaining about Ursan, and they just won't stop posting in these threads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Because that sort of thing is required to make it a challenge, HM isnt meant to be balance. Its meant to be a challenge.
If the AI team had to work within the same limits as a player it would lose every single time because its AI controlled v player controlled.

To make it balanced in NM and a challenge in HM the AI needs an advantage.
As I said before balance in PvE is not X = Y.

Because the AI will never be able to play at the same level as a team of players.
The AI cant change its build.
etc

The player will always have an advantage and so it needs to be balanced out with an advantage for the AI.

So you are saying making a certain profession more worthless and discriminated in the game is your definition of making the game challenging? It is clearly shown that you play a less discriminated profession, and you have no idea what the average Ritualist or Mesmer players have gone through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Are you saying a runner is overpowered? That a runner makes killing AI teams far to easy?

All running does is let players skip parts of the game they dont enjoy.
Overpowered skills kill game balance by making it to easy.

Its hardly the same thing.

The term, run has been evolved to the point where players will do any Hard Mode mission or Hard Mode dungeon at a cost of price. CoF runs are a good example of it. So how is this different?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Right because thats quite obviousely the same as rewarding power based on time spent grinding.

The quality of your team is an outside factor. You cant grind a better team. You cant buy a better team.
Your teams skill is based on the skill of the players and how they work together.

That is the time spent on grinding to get people on your buddylist. And secondly, quality of a team is not an outside factor; you can hire people to be on your team, who can be more experienced into the game. It is also possible to leech a close friend or guildie who is more experienced to complete a certain mission or task. How are these different?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

And at which point am I dictating? Just like you im here giving my opinion.
My opinion is UB is overpowered.
My opinion is that overpowered skill are bad for the game.
My opinion is that things that are bad for the game are bad.

There's a difference between stating one's opinion to how Ursan is overpowered and can be a negative affection, and one's dictatorship to tell people not to use Ursan at all or deems it as they are commiting a crime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Do you really believe that a mesmer for example plays as a mesmer so they can play as a frontline melee char?

In my opinion UB doesnt allow unwanted proffesions to play more. It just turns them into another proffesion.

It doesnt make mesmers more wanted in PvE. It just lets them turn into a frontline char.
It doesnt make different team builds wanted, it just makes it irrelevant.

It removes any skill required from the game. As long as you have the time to grind UB you can go ahead and never have a challenge again.

Do you really believe Mesmers have always been playing a Mesmer for the last two years, or were most of them Fast Cast Nukers? Do you really believe Mesmers get to play at all for the last two years?

If you really insist on allowing unwanted professions to play more, do you have a solution?

In all honesty, as a Mesmer before the release of Ursan, the only challenge I see in PvE was the fact that people believed Mesmers of being useless, and I can't get in PuG's because of it. If you really want to challenge yourself, make a Mesmer today.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Well let me ask you a question.

How do bots effect you?
How do gold sellers effect you?
How does people cheating effect you?

Please note an answer here of, they are against the EULA doesnt work. That doesnt explain how it effects you.

By what you are saying it doesnt effect you.
Because what they do ingame doesnt effect you right?

If they dupe some rare item that doesnt effect you does it?
If they have a bot to farm an area that doesnt effect you right?
If they use an exploit to ensure they always win that doesnt effect you.

Im fairly sure that you do think that effects you, and guess what? It does.
So does having an overpowered skill.

Just because it happens in their own instance doesnt stop it effecting others, this is an online game.
Other players effect each other.

Having an overpowered skill that's made by the game company itself doesn't equal to botting, selling golds, and hacking. I am aware of the fact that these factors affect my gameplay, but I'm still not convinced why you won't just say how Ursan affects my gameplay, which is the case at this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Generally speaking, let's look at the situation with person A and person B, where they are in separate instances. If person A accomplishes task C, person B is unaffected, because as we all know, we have different instances. Nonetheless, the only way I can see how person A would affect person B is the fact that person B actually believes that only certain people deserve to accomplish the given task. The truth is, this is no more than an opinion, and thus it should not have any effect to both players as they both purchased the game with their own money.

In this case, you are basically saying only a certain percentage of the population should be able to complete certain given tasks just because you believe this is a balance that's mandatory to the game. In simple terms, you are expecting Anet to restrict the areas the general population can play in just because you believe in such balance. This implies that you are more or less just an elitist, who wants to hold a certain title or accomplishment to himself. Sorry to burst your bubble; these titles and accomplishments don't even worth a cent to anyone else but yourself. My point is, if you have to be in a competition with other people to find enjoyment to your progress of gaming, even knowing that such competition never existed, what's really the point?

If this is the sort of affection you were talking about, I don't believe any solution can be made to satisfy you.

Torabo · Feb 13, 2008, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Genius

My opinion is if u are running Ursan, your no longer an assassin. Why? Because your not using assassin skills or attributes, just those provided by the bear.

I have pugged in Ursanway groups a bit. My main (the only char I play) is a monk, so luckily it isn't butting mashing for me. I understand its still easier though, which is why the PUG wants to run Ursan.

Personally I enjoy the satisfaction of vanquishing with H/H. It doesn't feel like "cheating" to me - the henchies are almost like a handicap and don't run Ursan. I understand others don't like/don't have the skill to play this way - after all it is a online game.

I would run an assassin build if people let me. Except if you haven't noticed, aside from ursan groups, assassins don't get to join groups for almost any elite area. Is there something wrong with wanting to finish the game on my primary character? Yes, even if it means I'll be playing as a melee bear instead of a melee assassin, because at least I'll BE ABLE to go there. Just because you play a profession that is accepted in groups for pretty much any area doesn't mean its easy for others to do the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

I also dont think everyone should be equal. Skill should be the factor in who is the better player, not who has spent the most time grinding a title.
It also shouldnt be about who chooses to use an overpowered skill and who doesnt, that choice shouldnt be there. The game should be balanced, however when thats not possible there at least shouldnt be anything as extreme as UB.

So what's skills? Being able to click with better precision and speed because of the computer/mouse/screen/internet connection/whatever you have? The ability to use the same skill bar as a few thousand other people? Be it one skill or a full skill bar, its still the same thing. So you say people aren't equal in their ability to breeze through the game. Then how does the introduction of UB affect you? Because in your view you're still more skilled than they are, regardless of if this skill exists or not. How does the introduction of UB affect your OWN PERSONAL VIEWS on who is a better player? The people that have to use UB would still be viewed by YOU as a worse player regardless if there was UB or not. Aside from maybe titles that no one really looks at, its just your ego that's showing here.

Also, define balanced. Given that all the professions were designed for different purposes to begin with, what determines balance? Giving every profession the ability to 1v1 against any other profession? 2v2? 4v4?
There is no such thing as balance.
When an area can be designed such that groups of any mixed profession can clear it in the same amount of time, then we can talk about 'balance'.
Like that'll ever happen.

Isileth · Feb 13, 2008, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

First of all, cheating is mentioned in EULA unless you were refering to some other methods of cheating, if so, please specify.

EULA is more or less just a set of rules set by Anet to ensure their game will go in a certain direction. These are the rules players have to follow. In simple terms, just because you don't like a certain skill, and you don't plan to use it, it does not mean that everyone else should not use it. From the way I see it, just because you believe that Ursan is a negative affection to the game, it doesn't mean everyone else sees it that way. You are continue to claim Ursan to be a form of cheating or negative affection to the game, but you have yet to provide any reasons or supports to these claims. Nonetheless, my point here is, despite the fact your claims have no supports or what not, such rule is not justified to be followed by everyone just because you believe so.

You are totally and completely missing the point here.

I am not saying its cheating and that it should be banned. Im saying its overpowered and it should be brought inline with other skills.

My comments as to cheaters and such was in response to people saying them using it doesnt effect others. Thats the link, that what one player does can effect another. Not that UB is against or should be against the EULA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Secondly, as far as I can tell, there are only a few people complaining about Ursan, and they just won't stop posting in these threads.

Well from my view I see quite a lot who have a problem with it.

Also in these cases it shouldt be a case of more people like it so its fine or more people hate it so lets change it.

(Please note numbers here randomly picked just for an example)

You shouldnt look at it and say, well 60% of people think UB is fine lets keep it.

You look at it and say, 40% of people arent happy with it. How do we make it so more than 60% are happy with it.

It shouldnt be viewed as UB v No UB. But rather how to make more people happy with the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

So you are saying making a certain profession more worthless and discriminated in the game is your definition of making the game challenging? It is clearly shown that you play a less discriminated profession, and you have no idea what the average Ritualist or Mesmer players have gone through.

I have both a Rit and a mesmer. So quite obviousely it doesnt clearly show anything.

But I know as both a Rit and mesmer that when playing as those proffesions I want to play as that proffesion.
When I want to play as a frontline I go and grab one.
When I want to play as an ele I go do that.

I would obviousely love to see a way to make such proffesions more wanted, but I would want to see those proffesions more wanted. Not a way to turn them into another proffesion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

That is the time spent on grinding to get people on your buddylist. And secondly, quality of a team is not an outside factor; you can hire people to be on your team, who can be more experienced into the game. It is also possible to leech a close friend or guildie who is more experienced to complete a certain mission or task. How are these different?

Are you seriousely suggesting playing with people good at the game is the same as using an overpowered skill?

I really dont think I need to bother discussing that point anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

There's a difference between stating one's opinion to how Ursan is overpowered and can be a negative affection, and one's dictatorship to tell people not to use Ursan at all or deems it as they are commiting a crime.

And I am not doing the latter.

All im saying is that in my opinion is its overpowered and that I would like to see it balanced.
Im hardly going round and punishing or forcing people to not use it. Im simply stating my opinion and discussing my points and views on the subject.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Do you really believe Mesmers have always been playing a Mesmer for the last two years, or were most of them Fast Cast Nukers? Do you really believe Mesmers get to play at all for the last two years?

So the soloution is to make an overpowered skill that all proffesions can use?

Even as a player who plays with the less wanted proffesions I would much rather see them be less wanted than have UB in game.

Now ideally I would like to see them changed in some way that makes them wanted, without going down the UB route of making something so powerful that not taking it is stupid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Having an overpowered skill that's made by the game company itself doesn't equal to botting, selling golds, and hacking. I am aware of the fact that these factors affect my gameplay, but I'm still not convinced why you won't just say how Ursan affects my gameplay, which is the case at this point.

You again miss the point. I am not saying using UB is equal to cheating or botting.

It was used because people said that using UB didnt effect others, so I countered by asking why people are against cheating and botting if what someone else does doesnt effect them.

As for saying how it affects you gameplay, I and many others have.
But you and others have said that it doesnt, hence the reason the question about cheating, botting etc was used.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

If this is the sort of affection you were talking about, I don't believe any solution can be made to satisfy you.

Well I disagree with both statements there.

1) What other people do ingame does effect others.

This is where the question about cheating and botting was used. And ill ask it again since you didnt answer before.

If people using UB doesnt effect others...
How does botting?
How does using exploits?
How does gold selling?

Because according to you it doesnt matter if one player has an advantage or not, it doesnt effect the other player.

2) Im not an elitist.

How do you get from me suggesting a skill is overpowered to being elitist?

Im not at all suggesting areas should be kept locked away from common folk. What I am suggesting is that there shouldnt be overpowered skills.

As it is I find UB to be quite elitist, in that people seem to agree that only those who spend the time grinding deserve access to it.

Infact on me being elitist if you check some of my other posts you will see I support many suggestions to remove grind from parts of the game to open it up to more casual players, to allow 7 heroes so more areas become accessible and again casual players can try the harder areas when they dont have the time to form a team of players etc.

Im very much against the game being elitist or areas being locked away from casual players.

But the soloution is not to make an overpowered skill that makes the whole game stupidly easy. Sure it gives them access but it hurts the game a lot more while doing so.

romeus petrus · Feb 13, 2008, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Ummm ... lol?

That L28-30 monsters is equal to L20 human in power. What ai makes up by numbers human makes up by having brain.

Umm ..lol back at you.

You're comparing apples and oranges. You're comparing having a brain to having a much higher level; which is if u think about it quite a comical comparison.

What's balanced in your opinion might not be balanced to others, hence the impossiblity of true balance in PvE.

zwei2stein · Feb 13, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torabo

I would run an assassin build if people let me. Except if you haven't noticed, aside from ursan groups, assassins don't get to join groups for almost any elite area. Is there something wrong with wanting to finish the game on my primary character? Yes, even if it means I'll be playing as a melee bear instead of a melee assassin, because at least I'll BE ABLE to go there. Just because you play a profession that is accepted in groups for pretty much any area doesn't mean its easy for others to do the same.

Funny, just the other day (make it two months ago) i was LFGing in doa with most powerful PvE profession (paragon atm) ... yet noone there even attempted to add me to party because i was not having U on my bar and. Pretty much any char i run would net me kick from elite groups ... be it ursans or tankways, yet i run top grade builds that get me wins.

Just because average pug does not want you in party means that it is impossible or that you are genuinely unwanted. It means that you are spared bad pug experience with "must have obsi tank!" noobs and possibly blessed with group that knows how much armor ignoring DPS can sin make.

If, of course, you can run good Sin. For me most problems that i have had with unwanted classes were people who chose to play them yet didn't know how to play them and did stuff like FC deathly swarm spam.

Most problems with elite areas are solved by l2p and joining guild that did l2p too. Your profession is irrelevant.

Lagg · Feb 13, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimEye

Ursan is crutch to propped up classes that are "discriminated".

Allow me to scream it once more at the top of my lungs:

Give serious buffs to the Sunspear and Kurzick/Luxon PvE skills of the "discriminated" professions (Rit, Mesmer, Sin...) and restrict them to their primary professions.

No need for Ursan craziness to make Mesmers wanted.

Ursan is simply more proof that the devs have lost all ambition with Guild Wars.

Let's hope they're keeping all the good stuff for Guild Wars 2.

It just hurts seeing a game that was once brilliant and innovative turn so damn... average.

DivineEnvoy · Feb 13, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

You are totally and completely missing the point here.

I am not saying its cheating and that it should be banned. Im saying its overpowered and it should be brought inline with other skills.

My comments as to cheaters and such was in response to people saying them using it doesnt effect others. Thats the link, that what one player does can effect another. Not that UB is against or should be against the EULA.

Well from my view I see quite a lot who have a problem with it.

Also in these cases it shouldt be a case of more people like it so its fine or more people hate it so lets change it.

(Please note numbers here randomly picked just for an example)

You shouldnt look at it and say, well 60% of people think UB is fine lets keep it.

You look at it and say, 40% of people arent happy with it. How do we make it so more than 60% are happy with it.

It shouldnt be viewed as UB v No UB. But rather how to make more people happy with the game.

I have both a Rit and a mesmer. So quite obviousely it doesnt clearly show anything.

But I know as both a Rit and mesmer that when playing as those proffesions I want to play as that proffesion.
When I want to play as a frontline I go and grab one.
When I want to play as an ele I go do that.

I would obviousely love to see a way to make such proffesions more wanted, but I would want to see those proffesions more wanted. Not a way to turn them into another proffesion.

Are you seriousely suggesting playing with people good at the game is the same as using an overpowered skill?

I really dont think I need to bother discussing that point anymore.

And I am not doing the latter.

All im saying is that in my opinion is its overpowered and that I would like to see it balanced.
Im hardly going round and punishing or forcing people to not use it. Im simply stating my opinion and discussing my points and views on the subject.

So the soloution is to make an overpowered skill that all proffesions can use?

Even as a player who plays with the less wanted proffesions I would much rather see them be less wanted than have UB in game.

Now ideally I would like to see them changed in some way that makes them wanted, without going down the UB route of making something so powerful that not taking it is stupid.

You again miss the point. I am not saying using UB is equal to cheating or botting.

It was used because people said that using UB didnt effect others, so I countered by asking why people are against cheating and botting if what someone else does doesnt effect them.

As for saying how it affects you gameplay, I and many others have.
But you and others have said that it doesnt, hence the reason the question about cheating, botting etc was used.

Well I disagree with both statements there.

1) What other people do ingame does effect others.

This is where the question about cheating and botting was used. And ill ask it again since you didnt answer before.

If people using UB doesnt effect others...
How does botting?
How does using exploits?
How does gold selling?

Because according to you it doesnt matter if one player has an advantage or not, it doesnt effect the other player.

2) Im not an elitist.

How do you get from me suggesting a skill is overpowered to being elitist?

Im not at all suggesting areas should be kept locked away from common folk. What I am suggesting is that there shouldnt be overpowered skills.

As it is I find UB to be quite elitist, in that people seem to agree that only those who spend the time grinding deserve access to it.

Infact on me being elitist if you check some of my other posts you will see I support many suggestions to remove grind from parts of the game to open it up to more casual players, to allow 7 heroes so more areas become accessible and again casual players can try the harder areas when they dont have the time to form a team of players etc.

Im very much against the game being elitist or areas being locked away from casual players.

But the soloution is not to make an overpowered skill that makes the whole game stupidly easy. Sure it gives them access but it hurts the game a lot more while doing so.

"An enthymeme is any argument in which one or more of the core propositions (the premisses or the conclusion) is not stated explicitly, but is merely assumed implicitly as part of the argument."

In all honesty, I cannot read your mind, and thus I cannot predict what premisses or conclusion you have assumed implicitly as part of the argument. In other words, I didn't really miss your point, but instead, you have not stated it explicitly. This argument is more or less just a quarrel, which you can keep coming back and attempt to defend your argument by claiming that others have missed your point, in which you have not initialized in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagg

Allow me to scream it once more at the top of my lungs:

Give serious buffs to the Sunspear and Kurzick/Luxon PvE skills of the "discriminated" professions (Rit, Mesmer, Sin...) and restrict them to their primary professions.

No need for Ursan craziness to make Mesmers wanted.

Ursan is simply more proof that the devs have lost all ambition with Guild Wars.

Let's hope they're keeping all the good stuff for Guild Wars 2.

It just hurts seeing a game that was once brilliant and innovative turn so damn... [I]average[/].

I admire your persistence, and I have to say, I wouldn't mind a buff to those skills for a change to Ursan, but the problem is, will the elitists approve of this? As far as I know, they want all the PvE-only skills to be removed, because they don't want other people to touch DoA or Hard Mode titles.